@holymolyrocky

"Bernie Sanders Promises That Soviet Union, Venezuela Aren’t Examples of ‘Failed Socialism’."

He claims they are examples of failed culinary experiments, ruined by the intervention of three-eyed monsters from a galaxy far, far away, who took the cake and ate it preventing its distribution.

How can anybody take any of these imbeciles seriously is, and shall remain, a mistery to me.

@Debradelai

I think one reason why Crazy Bernie voters take him seriously is the careful way that collectivists have herded them into an intellectually narrow space where they believe all Republicans are inherently trying to: make the rich richer & the poor poorer; force women to give birth against their will; treat gays as if it's 1919 not 2019; give free semi-autos with unlimited ammo to every home, esp the mentally ill; & invade other countries for oil the US already has.

@holymolyrocky

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @holymolyrocky

Agreed, but in the same breath will then claim that Republicans are poor, uneducated trailer trash. It's like, which one is it guys??

@lp_1985 @GodlessNZ @Debradelai @holymolyrocky
Any Moderate Dem, and believe it or not know some uneducated trailer trash with hope for real change are voting . The Republican part is an afterthought.

@NotJustMe @lp_1985 @GodlessNZ @Debradelai The failure of the GOP to support Trump wil have long term impacts. The next squish of a Republican wil not get support or traction. We want someone from the President Trump ideology to fight and carry the party going forward.

@holymolyrocky @lp_1985 @GodlessNZ @Debradelai
I was born and raised Democrat in a big city. If I changed my mind a lot of other like minded and wiser than me have as well. Even if they won't say so. The ship is was going down for the USA the last 12 or so years. Captain DJT turned that around.

@NotJustMe

The last 12 or so years? Can you help me out by being a bit more specific than that?

IMO the USA was doing just fine until January 2009.

@holymolyrocky @lp_1985 @Debradelai

@GodlessNZ @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 @Debradelai
Well the sending manufacturing jobs overseas for profit started before 2009. Dunno or care what party thought it was a good idea. It wasn't. 2009? The year my hard fought for position was replaced. Remember it well. Just glad to see jobs returning.

@NotJustMe

The sending of jobs overseas started in the 90s, and before.

IMO the US had the ability to withstand a lot of what DC gave it, but once Obama came along, things reached crisis point.

@holymolyrocky @lp_1985 @Debradelai

@Debradelai

True. Changing market conditions drive company decisions. Trump makes it look relatively easy to move the levers that entice more investment on US soil.

@NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 But it really is EASY with a lot of hard work. Need to open an new steel factory? Find a closed one and work with local officials to reopen. The people are BEGGING for jobs and so will support tax payer dollar use. It is a win win!

@oystergirl @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

What a good opportunity for corporatist projects, eh?

Taxpayer dollars, unions and crony capitalists. What a recipe!

Pass.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985
My legal services employer froze wages since 2014; since then, opened branches in Cincinnati, Durham, elsewhere, before that assigned work to India. Our floor lately has 30% empty seats. The cost of living in RVA has increased, our recruitment base has dried up. We hire newly minted attorneys and older attorneys affected by the recession. Our large clients w large litigation cases are recession-proof, but we are a profit center.

@Hilarious @Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 The individual issues are painful and astounding. So many have no clue about the suffering of specific employment groups. The low to middle office folks on Wall St. have struggled since 2008 many losing their homes along with their jobs and folks still BS about the bonuses they get. NO ONE other than a Managing Director gets a non-amortized bonus on WS anymore. Trust me. I know.

@Hilarious @Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 LOL couldn't leave cause I had a house as an anchor. All good. Still in the house but still dealing with financial issues that few can understand! ACK the company store! I would NEVER advise anyone to work on WS!

@oystergirl @Hilarious @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

Imagine the suffering of workers in the carriage manufacturing business!

All those poor, suddenly unemployed whalers!

Shit happens, technologies, modes of production and transport change, needs evolve.

Deal with it.

Or go back to making arrowheads, keep those jobs going!

Socialist fallacy.

@Debradelai @oystergirl @Hilarious @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985
Capitalism is creative destruction. Steam ships didn't build the rail ways and rail did not build the airlines. If you are not continuously working to re-direct, re-imagine, streamline, improve your produce/services, not to worry, your competition will do it for you.
Started my business thirty years ago and I am just finishing my 5th business plan to take it to a different level and direction. I love it.

@ChicagoScott

Well said. Nothing breeds success like failure. Necessity is the mother of invention.

I'd trained and worked in 3 different careers by the age of 40 and it didn't bother me one bit.

Adapt to survive - or don't.

@Debradelai @oystergirl @Hilarious @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@Hilarious @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

They are probably feeling the pinch in a highly competitive environment of a commodities profession.

Same in others (accounting), where communications allow businesses to source basic skills jobs just about anywhere.

Become a lawyer or learn to code.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 It would be very beneficial to all of us if you could explain your statement because so many of our family members, friends, etc have been told that they were downsized because their jobs were "sent overseas" so if they are not commodities, are they revenue streams? I guess no matter the definition it all sucks when you get laid off and your industry shrinks and you can't get a job.

@oystergirl @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

What your low information relatives were told, is none of my concern.

That they bought it, though, I must confess I find amusing.

Next time you want to ask me something, try not to answer yourself in the same breath.

Try again.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ Message received and I apologize for posting after having a few glasses of wine. Probably not a good idea as we become more emotional and a lot less logical. It's on me and I take responsibility for it. Lesson learned.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 I mean if we just count hired helpers (and not grandparents) who here has an American, Saudi, Canadian, Aussie or Emirati nanny or maid? Households make these labor decisions too. It was unions that made corporations pay a decent wage. They would pay pennies if they could get away with it. Without fair trade and labor standards they’ll go to the ends of the earth to get away with it. Corporations don’t CARE about you

@Hunter @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

Fascist propaganda:

"It was unions that made corporations pay a decent wage."

Bullshit. It's market conditions that determine salaries, a product of the supply and demand of labor.

"Corporations don’t CARE about you."

Bullshit. They depend on good quality of labor and satisfied customer. They definitely care about that. The ones that survive at any rate.

Socialist propaganda at its most stupid.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 if I’m an owner of a construction site, there’s a minimum wage (activists imposed on the market) that I have to pay an American ( Ibew, ua, local 5 guys) to complete a project but I have a steady supply of cheaper foreign labor who could do the same job, even if I have to make an American show them how to do it, if I know the government won’t hassle me for it, what does corporate America do all the time 🤷‍♂️.

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 don’t know how my fellow facists and socialists arrived at open borders but it’s nonsensical to me and that’s how I broke rank with the party. Now I’m an independent

@Debradelai @Hunter @GodlessNZ @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 I think we're going to find out just who those companies are (we are perhaps finding out right now).
The conditions by which companies could manage to NOT be well run seem to be coming to an end -- and that imhao again, has been one of the problems.
Good...poorly run companies need to go bye-bye (and their corrupt union pals too).

@JennyR

the more a govt can get out of the way, the more effectively a market can sort those things out.

@Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 I'm of two minds: for the most part, yes, I agree with leaving alone to the markets; but I'm not a complete libertarian/free market-er (I consider it untenable in our reality)...sometimes government is correct to intervene...unfortunately this has to be done wisely and well, and usually that is not the case.

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 But, I will admit that my views come from a rather pessimistic view of human nature AND we appear to be going into a stage where the markets may be able to operate as they should. Hopefully we don't eff it up...

@JennyR

I'm no libertarian, i'm a conservative. The freer the market, the better, and IMO there are genuine cases of market failure where intervention is beneficial. The level of market distortion caused by all levels of govt in the US and elsewhere is so great that truly freeing the markets is an aspirational goal only, but that IMO doesn't reduce any of the need to die trying.

A pessimist view of human nature is vital too, IMO.

@Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 In that, I am in agreement.
I mention the libertarians because they're usually the ones harping on "free markets!" when we don't/didn't have the conditions for them, nor was their idea about them based (imhao) in reality.
My views on human nature lend me to the belief that, if given the choice, a majority will opt not for the use of their legs, but for the golden wheelchair.
And that is why we cannot have nice things.

@JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

Nonsense.

This guy was no "libertarian" and he was absolutely right.

Listen carefully next time you want the government to morigerate the vagaries of the markets to an abstract idea of what "it should be."

Then listen to it again.

youtube.com/watch?v=xhYJS80MgY

@JennyR

Obviously conservatives have done a poor job of promoting our views bc freeing the markets is one of our core values. When do we not have the conditions for free markets? We were born with them, it's our natural state.

Re human nature I wasn't talking about what the majority would do. Again, our natural state is to work, strive and create. It's industrial-scale collectivism that has bred dependency. Individualism is the cure.

@Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 ...and our human state is also to be rather capriciously naive and/or abjectly greedy, thus easy targets for con jobs (or highly tempted into producing them).
So, while it would be ideal, true, 100% free markets will likely never happen. Not that it wouldn't be great...but probably not going to have them.
Did Reagan get what he wanted? Or did that get deep sixed by certain factors?
Like I said: I'm a pessimist.

@JennyR

Sorry, I didn't realize until now that you are actually trying to argue against supporting the idea of free markets. My mistake.

A better use of your time would be to look up the term "strawman fallacy." But what would I know.

@Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 I said: free markets would be the ideal, that we should strive for them as much as possible, but we probably will never truly attain it because...in a nutshell people are corrupt.

Admittedly I do believe in man's fallen nature, thus perfectionism is likely out of our reach...so capitalism good, but there will always be bad men thus imperfect capitalism...and so we have to have laws to keep the bad men from screwing it up.

@JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

Like I said. You remind me of Bergoglio.

I, on the other hand, subscribe to the philosophy of our founding fathers and their rejection of a paternalistic state making "laws to keep the bad men from screwing it up."

I leave that collectivist impulse, the antithesis of American thought, to the likes of Lenin, Mussolini or the Pope.

We have no basis for agreement here.

america.aljazeera.com/opinions

@Debradelai @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 I consider myself more Rerum Novarum, but disagreeing is cool.
Yes, I do believe that we tend to go in back and forth motions: because we are not capable of finding that way towards perfect equilibrium -- it is what it is.

The founding fathers invoked tariff acts while desiring free markets (foreign influence being something they correctly noted as making a true free market system work).

@JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

Thank you. You just made me win a bet.

Rerum Novarum, the diabolical foundation of Fascism, and Bergoglio's basis for Laudato Si.

A fucking Fascist, after all.

And Tariffs, for the founding fathers, was a way to raise a revenue, moron, not a way to intervene in the markets.

Take your Jesuitic lies and shove them up your exhaust hole.

Please untag me, I only argue with Fascists through the crosshairs.

@Debradelai @JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @lp_1985

I have had nothing to drink, so I guess there is only one other option presented.

Feel free to party on without me.

Show more

@JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

You misspelled collectivist, dear.

Capitalism good but man bad need guidance from daddy state.

Reminds me of Bergoglio.

@Debradelai

It reminds me of the human urge to have some kind of religious belief - that humans are fundamentally flawed and need a higher power to protect them from themselves.

It's amazing that we survived for all those millennia, isn't it?

@JennyR @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@prchrskd

That's your evidence in support of the assertion? OK.

BTW, some of the men and women in Congress are awesome. IMHO

@Debradelai @JennyR @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ @Debradelai @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985 Some conservatives are not really conservatives -- and thus have done the exact opposite of conservative views because it was easy and profitable for them...and that has also been part of the problem.
And now we have a president who has been forced to step in order to give us freer markets (and freer lives) -- and such interventions I don't mind.
Yes, we all have sunk that low; a learning moment perhaps.

@JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

No. Not all.

But, according to your "pessimism," that will fail, too. Right?

Poor Trump, if only he knew about human nature he could have spared himself some effort.

Just like Reagan.

Jeez.

@Debradelai @JennyR @GodlessNZ @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985
This entire thread has had me cracking up for 2 days. Seriously I have read some of these passages out loud to a room full of people to raucous laughter ( Saul gets the best laughs for sure).......Saul, a saying comes to mind.." don't cast your Pearls Before Swine". they don't get it and they never will

@Debradelai

It's the same for me too, @WarriorPoet. I don't do this with the belief I'm going to change the mind of the fascist-du-jour in front of me. I do it for my own entertainment, and to help the lurkers.

@JennyR @Hunter @NotJustMe @holymolyrocky @lp_1985

@GodlessNZ Thank you. I'm currently discussing populism (his topic) with a son. Methinks his mindset, unbeknownst to him, is collectivist in origin (he's trying to understand things from his peer group's erroneous groupthink). I'm a doddering old fool with rigid thinking. Sigh.

@lisapretzel

I feel your pain. i have a nephew like that who i love very much. guess i better settle in for a long wait.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
QuodVerum Forum

Those who label words as violence do so with the sole purpose of justifying violence against words.